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Spiritsnare
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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120.  Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| edit I think it's a bit too late for the original post I made here. Sorry. x.x |
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toady007
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Joined: 22 Nov 2002
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| 121. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Double stepping - It's completely irrelevant to me personally whether ITG utilizes crossovers or not. I hate doing crossovers, and avoid them as much as possible. Hell, I double step Oasis expert with all those crossover freezes which is a funny sight. Not every chart has to flow together in a manner that is easy for your legs. Mix that crap up.
ITG Hard Charts - Compared to the Expert charts, they are pretty lame. I still play Hard a lot just because I like a lot of the Hard only songs, and I want to break top 3 on GrooveStats Hard ranking. Some songs are alright, but the majority seem like watered down versions of the Expert steps instead of completely different charts like you would see more in DDR. Take Bend Your Mind for example, the song on Hard is pretty much the same on Expert minus the crazy part in the middle.
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spartan118
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| 122. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Konami suing RoXoR because installing Boxors in arcade cabinets that are probably bootlegged in the first place removes the copyrighted DDR logo that advertises console versions sounds just plain stupid. I have not seen evidence that Konami directly gets profits from these machines, especially advertising.
Upon the case of patent laws, I do not believe Konami has a case. Not a single sprite from DDR has been ripped off and used in In the Groove. The scoring systems are also different. Infringing on the gameplay concept as a whole is also frivilous - about as frivilous as any other platformer "ripping off" of Super Mario Bros. Konami's pads used in playing the game are not made by RoXoR, either, and I do not believe the tutorial illegally displays the exact pad.
As usual, though, I'm open to corrections; and to the guy that brought up the Mario rip-off idea: many great things came out of what-if's just like that one. Star Wars, after all, replicated an old WWI/II film dogfight frame by brame... just with spaceships. They haven't gotten any sh!t for it as of yet.
Last edited by spartan118 on Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 123. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| spartan118 wrote: | Konami suing RoXoR because installing Boxors in arcade cabinets that are probably bootlegged in the first place removes the copyrighted DDR logo that advertises console versions sounds just plain stupid. I have not seen evidence that Konami directly gets profits from these machines, especially advertising.
Upon the case of patent laws, I do not believe Konami has a case. Not a single sprite from DDR has been ripped off and used in In the Groove. The scoring systems are also different. Infringing on the gameplay concept as a whole is also frivilous - about as frivilous as any other platformer "ripping off" of Super Mario Bros. Konami's pads used in playing the game are not made by RoXoR, either, and I do not believe the tutorial illegally displays the exact pad.
As usual, though, I'm open to corrections; and to the guy that brought up the Mario rip-off idea: many great things came out of what-if's just like that one. Star Wars, after all, replicated a dogfight frame by brame... just with spaceships. They haven't gotten any sh!t for it as of yet. |
Many people recognize the Dance Dance Revolution franchise name. If they go to an arcade and see it, they'll most likely play it. Then when they go to their malls and see the DDR console, they'll remember when they had so much fun in the arcade. They'll then be more likely to buy the console versions. That's advertising in essence. For every DDR turned ITG, that's one less piece of advertising they get for their console versions.
Oh, and Konami does have a case. They're sueing to protect their patents and trademarks. -_- It's been said for quite some while.
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Synaesthesia
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
| 124. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| spartan118 wrote: | | Star Wars, after all, replicated a dogfight frame by brame... just with spaceships. They haven't gotten any sh!t for it as of yet. |
If you can show me where dogfighting is patented, that *might* lend some credence to your argument.
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snickers1127â¶â
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Redding/Stockton, CA |
| 125. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | Not all of the ITG1 Hard steps are terrible, but as a collective whole, they are far less interesting, and far less involved than DDR Heavy steps. What they seriously lack is any kind of tech. Very few Hard songs involve turning or spinning at all. It was very noticable as I first started playing ITG PS2. I started playing through everything on Hard to unlock all the extras, and noticed by the end of an hour and a half session that I was hardly sweating at all, whereas by the same point in a typical DDR run (and no, I don't whore out all 10's the whole time), I'd be drenched. It's because you "have to" turn a whole lot more in DDR's Heavy steps. The Easy and Medium steps in ITG are just boring, period. Not to say that Light and Standard are exciting in DDR any longer, either. However, DDR songs tend to be shorter and far less prone to huge repeats of patterns, set to huge repeats of the music. Longer cuts may be great for a Hard or Expert chart, but for an Easy or Medium chart, it just drags, especially for songs that exceed the 2 minute mark. Expert steps more often involve some turning in ITG1, but not as much as I would like. More focus on tech and less on speed (long 1/16th note runs get stale fast) would impress me much more. Yes, mines count as tech too, but even they are more often under utilized than not. In many songs, mines are just thrown in for no reason, being either rediculously easy to see coming up and then avoid, or placed such that you avoid them just by stepping on the correct arrows anyway. Supposedly, a lot of these problems have been addressed in ITG2, but I don't have access to a machine yet, so I can't comment on how valid those claims are yet. Basically, if you were to put the difficulty levels of ITG and DDR together into some kind of hierarchy of a combination of skill requirement and fun, I think it would go something like:
Easy < Light < Medium < Standard < Hard < Heavy < Expert
Essentially, I see the DDR difficulties as falling in between the ITG ones. Heavy brings in the fun factor big time in DDR, IMO, while Expert obviously brings in the skill factor above much of DDR's Heavy offerings, though again its skill based mostly on foot speed and stamina (with a smattering of mine avoiding skill). |
I was breaking into Standard on DDR when I first tried ITG. I usually play Easy or Medium stepcharts, depending on the song. So far, I haven't had any issues with the ITG steps, other than keeping up and actually hitting the arrows. Hardcore of the North does have some spins in the middle on either Easy or Medium (I don't remember off the top of my head), so it's not like the Easy/Medium charts are complete poopy.
**Bracing for flamage of the n00b**
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Dancing Dan
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| 126. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well after reading these 7 pages, it is apparent that many ITG fanboys now hate Konami for what they are doing, and the attitudes they are showing really makes me wonder why the hell they are on these forums at all. Do you fanboys really think you will make a difference in the home version economy for DDR? No you won't. The number of casual/new players is probably double the hardcore players because of their US releases on the Ps2 and X-box. So if 2 of you say "ZOMFG I HATE KONAMI SCREW THE NEW DDR" and dont buy it, those casual/new players would probably still buy it.
IMO i think ITG is a fine game. I picked up my home version copy today, and tried the arcade one for the first time a few weeks ago. I gotta say its a great game, and extremely challenging. However it was no different from the DDR Extreme machine sitting 10 feet away from it. For god sakes i saw the "Stay Cool" stickers on the side of the machine and at the bottom of the pads. Like many have stated, i believe Konami is rightfully using those patents. Really i dont mind if ITG gets wiped off or not. If you think about it, if ITG got destroyed, wouldn't Konami say, "Gee people liked this game that came from guys in their garage! Maybe we should take some of their songs, or even make harder steps for songs we already have!" Some of you really think too negatively.
Also, supposedly Konami was offered 75% by RoXor. Is there proof of this? I would just like to see a webpage with proof before i believe what is posted here on the forums.
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Thomas Hobbes
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Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 127. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Dancing Dan wrote: | Well after reading these 7 pages, it is apparent that many ITG fanboys now hate Konami for what they are doing, and the attitudes they are showing really makes me wonder why the hell they are on these forums at all. Do you fanboys really think you will make a difference in the home version economy for DDR? No you won't. The number of casual/new players is probably double the hardcore players because of their US releases on the Ps2 and X-box. So if 2 of you say "ZOMFG I HATE KONAMI SCREW THE NEW DDR" and dont buy it, those casual/new players would probably still buy it.
IMO i think ITG is a fine game. I picked up my home version copy today, and tried the arcade one for the first time a few weeks ago. I gotta say its a great game, and extremely challenging. However it was no different from the DDR Extreme machine sitting 10 feet away from it. For god sakes i saw the "Stay Cool" stickers on the side of the machine and at the bottom of the pads. Like many have stated, i believe Konami is rightfully using those patents. Really i dont mind if ITG gets wiped off or not. If you think about it, if ITG got destroyed, wouldn't Konami say, "Gee people liked this game that came from guys in their garage! Maybe we should take some of their songs, or even make harder steps for songs we already have!" Some of you really think too negatively.
Also, supposedly Konami was offered 75% by RoXor. Is there proof of this? I would just like to see a webpage with proof before i believe what is posted here on the forums. |
I'm an ITG "fanboy" as I love the game quite some much. I support Konami fully, especially if you look at my posts, it'll support such theory.
Hey, if you're really erked about what Konami is doing, go buy shares in its stock.  RoXoR apparently is not a publicly traded corporation/company as of the moment, so you can't do anything about that.
Konami I believe only has one venture in the US which is in the NYSE with their Advertisement division. That is fairing well and I believe is going up.
Companies, I believe, MUST adhere to their stockholder's wishes/comments, so if you want to make a say go buy some stock. Otherwise, your emails and all that don't really mean a thing. However, you can buy like one stock and say that you own Konami, cause technically you do. So instead of being a gamer or consumer (which IMO, is equally important), you're emailing them from the standpoint of an INVESTOR and STOCKHOLDER.
Just a head's up
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Tsuri
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| 128. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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So exactly WHAT does Mad Catz have to do with this? If they're sueing them for MC Groove... then what about that Dance UK game (which has 8 arrows) and countless Chinese dance games no one has even heard of over here? lol You must admit it really IS stupid... I don't think it should be illegal to make a variation of a game... this is about as dumb as if Sega sued Namco for Tekken because Virtua Fighter came first!
Last edited by Tsuri on Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Dancing Dan
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| 129. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: |
I'm an ITG "fanboy" as I love the game quite some much. I support Konami fully, especially if you look at my posts, it'll support such theory. |
My Apologies baka. What i SHOULD have said was Those ITG fanboys who think All DDR games are evil now and think Konami is the devil or they wanna throw their DVDs into microwaves and junk. Those like you (and more recetly myself) who enjoy both games and do/don't support Konami but are not freaking out are exempt from what i said 
| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: |
Hey, if you're really erked about what Konami is doing, go buy shares in its stock. RoXoR apparently is not a publicly traded corporation/company as of the moment, so you can't do anything about that. |
Im not sure if this was in direct reference to me, or to others, because i am not erked by what Konami is doing and support it fully.
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Tsuri
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| 130. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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You know what, I think Konami is just afraid of competition... at first the lawsuit was about Roxor using DDR cabs which made sense... but pulling Mad Catz and Redoctane in this is just going a bit far... since MC Groove has been out for who knows how long it's fairly obvious what they're attempting to do...
Since Mad Catz is co-publishing PIU Exceed SE they're attempting to prevent competition in the console market... by somehow slowing down the release by hitting the publisher! I don't know about you but 90% of the USA releases of DDR were poopy so beating them is fairly easy... Konami fears this! They fear actually having to do work and include options to turn off the dance play!  |
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Tomo_kun
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Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Location: SE-WI. |
| 131. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tsuri wrote: | | You know what, I think Konami is just afraid of competition... at first the lawsuit was about Roxor using DDR cabs which made sense... but pulling Mad Catz and Redoctane in this is just going a bit far... since MC Groove has been out for who knows how long it's fairly obvious what they're attempting to do... |
I doubt konami is afraid of competition from MadCatz. Konami is concerned about their patents and copyrights.
| Tsuri wrote: | | Since Mad Catz is co-publishing PIU Exceed |
I thought it was some other smaller, crappier company who made one failed guitar game.
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| Cutriss wrote: | | FLCL, God of Gods wrote: | | Uh... so when do we get the porn forum? |
If you can't find porn on the Internet, you're not trying. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 132. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dancing Dan: The whole "go buy stock" thing is for people that are "nuking" their games, "boycotting" Konami and those that are setting up petitions online.
Tsuri: I believe the original complaint listed that the DDR cabs were illegally transformed in to ITG machines and that their game is quite similar so that people not familiar with the game would mistake it for DDR as the general game is the same. They're also losing the advertisement value of having the machines too. In addition, since ITG is a similar game patents that Konami has come in play too. Thus, the reason for RedOctane and Mad Catz coming in to play.
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Wolfman Jake
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| 133. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Tsuri wrote: | | So exactly WHAT does Mad Catz have to do with this? If they're sueing them for MC Groove... then what about that Dance UK game (which has 8 arrows) and countless Chinese dance games no one has even heard of over here? |
Look up MC GROOVZ danceCRAZE on EBgames and check out the screen shots. Yes, it has a very DDRish mode, 4 arrows at the top in a horizontal row arranged left, down, up, and right (in that order) in addition to the 8 arrows in a circle formation mode.
Plus, why hasn't anything been done about the Chinese knock-offs? Well, consider this. Has anyone ever been able to do ANYTHING about those knock-offs that come out of China? It is difficult in the extreme to get China to cooperate with such patent and trademark infringement. Yes, believe it or not, they're practically untouchable in these matters.
| Tsuri wrote: | | lol You must admit it really IS stupid... I don't think it should be illegal to make a variation of a game... this is about as dumb as if Sega sued Namco for Tekken because Virtua Fighter came first! |
Except for the fact that neither Sega nor Namco got a patent for any of the gameplay mechanics for a 3-D tournament fighting game. However, Konami did get patents on several aspects of DDR, including the cabinet, dance pad, and certain gameplay elements like the way the arrows are presented and scroll on screen and the use of step judgment feedback for the player, to name a few. That's the difference here. Konami had foresight to buy (yes, companies have to pay money to do this) the US patents to protect their intellectual property, their invention. Infringing on Konami's patent is basically theft upon the investiment they made to secure a patent for their invention. Now, nothing about Konami's patent precludes the existence of other dance games hitting the market. If you want to capitalize on Konami's patented mechanics or hardware to make a dance game, you have to get permission from Konami. Otherwise, you can actually go ahead and design a game with innovative gameplay elements that do not infringe upon Konami's patents.
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Tsuri
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| 134. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Tomo_kun wrote: | | Tsuri wrote: | | You know what, I think Konami is just afraid of competition... at first the lawsuit was about Roxor using DDR cabs which made sense... but pulling Mad Catz and Redoctane in this is just going a bit far... since MC Groove has been out for who knows how long it's fairly obvious what they're attempting to do... |
I doubt konami is afraid of competition from MadCatz. Konami is concerned about their patents and copyrights.
| Tsuri wrote: | | Since Mad Catz is co-publishing PIU Exceed |
I thought it was some other smaller, crappier company who made one failed guitar game. |
No, Mad Catz and Mastiff-Games are co-publishing PIU Exceed SE... and Mastiff has brought some pretty good games to the USA recently... they're primarily a publisher... I don't think they've developed anything. |
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gameboyguy13
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Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Location: The other side of that green bridge, yeah! |
| 135. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| DUDEsup137 wrote: | I like konami, But quite hnoestly, I could care less about this! Hmm...why am I posting here?  |
That's a good question. Ever hear of postwhoring?
| yyr wrote: | | The latest PS2 versions are a joke, and a bad one at that. Look: NO new challenges on the songlist, AT ALL. There's no excuse for that. "Well, the new steps are fun! They don't have to be hard!" The number of players looking for new challenges is going UP, people, not DOWN, and these folks don't find 7-footers much fun any more. The Oni course list is also a joke, and Mission Mode was interesting but not for more than a few days. And the corner button thing broke it anyway. Thankfully that will be fixed, but the whole NO NEW CHALLENGES ON THE SONG LIST is the big deal here. |
Challenge is relative. I don't know if I speak for anyone else, but not everyone can pass every song. I mean, I've been playing since Feb 2001, and I still can't pass MAX 300 (Maniac) or most of the 10-ft. I personally enjoy it when songs aren't OMG SUICIDE or such. That's not to say I want more Cutie Chaser- or Forever Sunshine-style steps (5ft Maniac, come on...), but not everyone can AAA max. [period]. I don't recall ever getting a AAA, myself. And that is inclusive of AC, CS, SM pad, and SM keyboard. :(
| yyr wrote: | | The most disturbing thing to me, though, is the deafening silence from Konami's arcade division. What's new? Nothing. What's planned? Nothing. Japan, USA, Antarctica... nothing. |
I personally am interested in this Konami of Antarctica division. Hook me up with more info.
Seriously, uh, ... what's new? Everything Bemani except KeyboardMania, PPP, DMX, and DDR. :(
| yyr wrote: | | Konami seems to forget that this whole DDR thing started with the arcade community that formed around it and still hasn't gone away. Konami must realize that it's still generating sales for the home version, otherwise they wouldn't have sued RoXoR over the machine conversions. [...] Hello? Konami? Are you deaf? |
Of course Konami realizes that it's still generating sales for the home versions; that's why they keep releasing new titles every year (EX2, UM1-2-3, Festival, Fusion-or-whatever-goes-on-in-the-UK-that-I-don't-have-time-to-keep-up-with...)
| yyr wrote: | | They've saved up enough KOs these last few years that they'd have no problem releasing a new arcade DDR. Heck, DDR itself has seen many of these in recent home versions. Pop'n and IIDX alone could provide enough new crossovers to at least match the number of "new" songs in Extreme; add KCEH songs and it would be even easier. The songs are there already! |
Yes please to more KOs, no thx to UM1 remixes (although UM2 had some pretty Hot Stuff (oops, sorry, that's TM4, my bad)...)
| yyr wrote: | | Joint Premium is NOT a good decision for an arcade to make because it makes Versus cost 1 credit. There is unfortunately no way to make Versus cost 2 and Double cost 1. These days, with arcades doing poorly as it is, modes that use both sides of the machine should cost 2 credits. |
I'd disagree with that last statement simply because ... how many times have you seen someone play single, by himself? That person is, for purposes of discussion, using both sides of the machine by himself. Even if someone shadows, the arcade isn't getting any money off that, are they? I mean, as far as electricity/operating costs is concerned, Versus and Double cost as much as Single (I think. I don't work at an arcade, so I don't have figures, but I'd think that the difference is minimal.) Anyway, people playing Double, from what I've noticed, attract bigger crowds. I'd think that would pay for itself... As far as Versus being no more expensive than Single, ... something wrong with that? I know that I'd play DDR more often if it were cheaper. Not everyone has lots of money to throw around... Wish I did, though.
| yyr wrote: | | People regularly pay $2 for SINGLE in many places |
Anyone who pays $2 for Single needs to leave Disney, Universal Studios, or whatever tourist trap is overcharging him/her for DDR and find somewhere cheaper. That, or write the arcade manager. (Sorry, can you tell I'm from Orlando?) Really, where do people pay $2, and how many songs are they getting per play?
| Catastrophe wrote: | | How can people still say that Konami is ignoring the arcade scene? |
I know, especially with IIDX RED, Pop'n ããã¯, GFV/DMV... The only (currently [relatively] active) thing left is DDR (as far as I know), so...
| Catastrophe wrote: | | [...] Konami has every right to tell RoXoR to go eff off. |
Hear, hear.
| Catastrophe wrote: | | DDR Extreme JP is 'only' 2 years, 7 months, and 15 days old in Japan. That's hardly abandonware in the arcade scene. In the United States most bootlegs are probably only about 2 years old. And that seems old to rabid fans, but it's not. Let's look at Time Crisis for example. That game had installments in 1996, 1998, and 2003. That's 2 years, 5 years, and currently going on two years. That's about normal. What's certainly not normal is having 8 major versions and over a dozen software versions all within 4 and a half years of each other. If you do the division, Konami was averaging a new arcade sequel every 7 months! From 1999-2001 Naoki was averaging one new song per week! That's absafuckingloutely insane! :shocked: |
Are you counting the stuff from bm/IIDX/popn/GFDM/DMX/PPP, too? There's a lot of stuff... http://www.ztv.ne.jp/cr-ig/Click2CR-IQnaoki.html has a pretty good list. But yeah, NAOKI is amazingly prolific, and not just with aliases. ;P
| Zajitarrius wrote: | | Dance Dance Revolution: Pump It Up In The Groove! |
Is it just me, or does this sound dirty to anyone else? ;P (Of course, with songs from E-Rotic and such, it might just fit .... j/k.)
</long, complex, and drawn-out post> And a cookie to anyone who actually reads all that. :P
(blush) Can you believe that in all that I forgot to mention the thing that first came in my mind when I first read the news update. I wonder if other games like Guitar Hero are going to be targeted next?
Last edited by gameboyguy13 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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triad.spacefight
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 137. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Uh. IIDX 12 Happy Sky is to come out on Wednesday in Japan IIRC.
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gameboyguy13
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Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Location: The other side of that green bridge, yeah! |
| 138. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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About that whole Giana Sisters thing... Didn't Machinae Supremacy do a cover of the main theme? (It was in TM2...)
That could be the Symbolic (get it?!) theme of ITG!
Just kidding... maybe. |
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Dancing Dan
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Joined: 05 Jun 2002
Location: San Mateo, California |
| 139. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: | | Dancing Dan: The whole "go buy stock" thing is for people that are "nuking" their games, "boycotting" Konami and those that are setting up petitions online. |
Oh ok cool. I agree with you 100%
| gameboyguy13 wrote: |
| yyr wrote: | | People regularly pay $2 for SINGLE in many places |
Anyone who pays $2 for Single needs to leave Disney, Universal Studios, or whatever tourist trap is overcharging him/her for DDR and find somewhere cheaper. That, or write the arcade manager. (Sorry, can you tell I'm from Orlando?) Really, where do people pay $2, and how many songs are they getting per play? |
Normally 3 per $2 so thats about 66 cents per song. Also, Disneyland only charges 1 dollar on their Extreme for 3 songs Just thought id correct you there 
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